I seems to be a sad reflection on our sport, or the rules that govern
it, that a contest with only 7 contestants can be called a
"Nationals".

I'm used to flying local club contests with 3 times more contestants
than that!

Andy

What is sad is that they call the PW-5 a "World Class Sailplane."

What I think would be cool would be a very strict one design class
like in sailing. Start with a Discus and have very strict class rules.
Only have a GPS for logging the flight, give them a basic and standard
set of instruments, audio variometers and the same cockpit layout.
Ballast them to the same weight and CG and then have everyone fly a
different ship from day to day. Would truly be a pilots contest. And a
Discus would ensure a level of performance that would make for
interesting tasking in a variety of weather conditions.

-Kevin

On Jun 9, 7:26*pm, KevinFinke > wrote:
> What is sad is that they call the PW-5 a "World Class Sailplane."
>
> What I think would be cool would be a very strict one design class
> like in sailing. Start with a Discus and have very strict class rules.
> Only have a GPS for logging the flight, give them a basic and standard
> set of instruments, audio variometers and the same cockpit layout.
> Ballast them to the same weight and CG and then have everyone fly a
> different ship from day to day. Would truly be a pilots contest. And a
> Discus would ensure a level of performance that would make for
> interesting tasking in a variety of weather conditions.
>
> -Kevin

While not perfectly identical, the current std and 15m classes are
close enough that no one wins on sailplane performance. And yeah,
that's pretty cool :-).

Looking at the FAA registry, I am surprised to see 70 PW-5s in the
US. Apparently, most were not bought to race.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Who got to pick the PW-5 for world class? Were they drunk???

We have a PW-5 in my club and it hardly ever gets flown. When it does
fly, it tends to stay locally even though our club promotes and
encourages cross country soaring. That glider just doesn't have legs
to run with. I like the Discus idea, or maybe an ASW-20 type ship. I
would love to compete in a one design class, it would helps reduce the
"money" aspect of winning a race. If you have an ASW-20 and compete
against an ASG-29 in 15M.....good luck!

Who got to pick the PW-5 for world class? What were they
drinking!!???

We have a PW-5 in my club and it hardly ever gets flown. When it
does
fly, it tends to stay locally even though our club promotes and
encourages cross country soaring. That glider just doesn't have long
enough legs
to run with. I like the Discus idea above, or maybe an ASW-20 type
ship. I
would love to compete in a one design class, it would surely reduce
the
"$$$$$" aspect of winning a race. If you have an ASW-20 and compete
against an ASG-29 in 15M.....good luck! With a one design class, the
pilots skill would shine rather than the aerodynamic engineers skill
shining.

On Jun 9, 7:51*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> Who got to pick the PW-5 for world class? *What were they
> drinking!!???
>
> We have a PW-5 in my club and it hardly ever gets flown. *When it
> does
> fly, it tends to stay locally even though our club promotes and
> encourages cross country soaring. *That glider just doesn't have long
> enough legs
> to run with. *I like the Discus idea above, or maybe an ASW-20 type
> ship. *I
> would love to compete in a one design class, it would surely reduce
> the
> "$$$$$" aspect of winning a race. *If you have an ASW-20 and compete
> against an ASG-29 in 15M.....good luck! *With a one design class, the
> pilots skill would shine rather than the aerodynamic engineers skill
> shining.

we've got a PW-5 in our club and the owner has been really active
after getting his Private last summer and has done some cross country
flying. The idea that the PW-5 doesnt have long enough legs to go
cross country is laughable. I was thermalling with him over memorial
day and when we left the thermal he said goodbye. And I have better
performance than the 1-26! by the way the 1-26 association just
happens to be winning the OLC in the US at the moment...

On Jun 9, 7:54*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Jun 9, 7:51*pm, Scott Alexander >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Who got to pick the PW-5 for world class? *What were they
> > drinking!!???
>
> > We have a PW-5 in my club and it hardly ever gets flown. *When it
> > does
> > fly, it tends to stay locally even though our club promotes and
> > encourages cross country soaring. *That glider just doesn't have long
> > enough legs
> > to run with. *I like the Discus idea above, or maybe an ASW-20 type
> > ship. *I
> > would love to compete in a one design class, it would surely reduce
> > the
> > "$$$$$" aspect of winning a race. *If you have an ASW-20 and compete
> > against an ASG-29 in 15M.....good luck! *With a one design class, the
> > pilots skill would shine rather than the aerodynamic engineers skill
> > shining.
>
> we've got a PW-5 in our club and the owner has been really active
> after getting his Private last summer and has done some cross country
> flying. *The idea that the PW-5 doesnt have long enough legs to go
> cross country is laughable. *I was thermalling with him over memorial
> day and when we left the thermal he said goodbye. *And I have better
> performance than the 1-26! *by the way the 1-26 association just
> happens to be winning the OLC in the US at the moment...

duh, what was i thinking. 1-26 association has been floating in the
top 10 in the club ranking, but Ron Schwartz is winning the individual
competetion, in the US.

On 6/9/2010 6:54 PM, Tony wrote:
> On Jun 9, 7:51 pm, Scott >
> wrote:
>> Who got to pick the PW-5 for world class? What were they
>> drinking!!???
>>
>> We have a PW-5 in my club and it hardly ever gets flown. When it
>> does
>> fly, it tends to stay locally even though our club promotes and
>> encourages cross country soaring. That glider just doesn't have long
>> enough legs
>> to run with.
<Snip...>
>
> we've got a PW-5 in our club and the owner has been really active
> after getting his Private last summer and has done some cross country
> flying. The idea that the PW-5 doesnt have long enough legs to go
> cross country is laughable. I was thermalling with him over memorial
> day and when we left the thermal he said goodbye. And I have better
> performance than the 1-26! by the way the 1-26 association just
> happens to be winning the OLC in the US at the moment...

Hey! No sense letting a guy named Osama hog religious extremism in the
cause of 'good.' Hating PW-5s seems an acceptable substitute for some!

Now...who wants to be the first in this thread to bring up Hitler?

Extremely Yours,
Bob W.

P.S. Scott A. - you'll need to raise your level quite a bit to count as
a religious extremist in the PW-5 wars!

On Jun 9, 6:59*pm, Bob Whelan > wrote:
> On 6/9/2010 6:54 PM, Tony wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 9, 7:51 pm, Scott >
> > wrote:
> >> Who got to pick the PW-5 for world class? *What were they
> >> drinking!!???
>
> >> We have a PW-5 in my club and it hardly ever gets flown. *When it
> >> does
> >> fly, it tends to stay locally even though our club promotes and
> >> encourages cross country soaring. *That glider just doesn't have long
> >> enough legs
> >> to run with.
> <Snip...>
>
> > we've got a PW-5 in our club and the owner has been really active
> > after getting his Private last summer and has done some cross country
> > flying. *The idea that the PW-5 doesnt have long enough legs to go
> > cross country is laughable. *I was thermalling with him over memorial
> > day and when we left the thermal he said goodbye. *And I have better
> > performance than the 1-26! *by the way the 1-26 association just
> > happens to be winning the OLC in the US at the moment...
>
> Hey! No sense letting a guy named Osama hog religious extremism in the
> cause of 'good.' Hating PW-5s seems an acceptable substitute for some!
>
> Now...who wants to be the first in this thread to bring up Hitler?
>
> Extremely Yours,
> Bob W.
>
> P.S. Scott A. - you'll need to raise your level quite a bit to count as
> a religious extremist in the PW-5 wars!

Don't make me come out of retirement Bob...

Al

Why is there always so much PW5 bashing? It´s nice to fly and safe for
new pilots. My club has three and they fly all the time and everybody
does their first cross country seasons in them. With area tasks and a
good handicap system you can have a lot of fun and sometimes beat the
higher performance ships on a good day. I still enjoy racing the PW5
on the rare occasions that one is available.
I know they cost about the same as an old Cirrus or Jantar but I wouldn
´t feel so comfortable putting a brand new pilot in one of these. I
think this friendliness to new pilots has been a major factor in
getting more people involved in the sport.
Owners of high performance ships will always sneer at the PW5 but for
a club they are great and one design racing is a lot of fun. Who cares
if the performance is not so good? The challenge is to beat the other
guy with the same machine. 1-26 racing is still popular and a PW5 can
fly rings around a 1-26..

Regards,

Juan Carlos

I'm very curious to know how the World Class is doing (dare I say
growing) in other parts of the world (other than USA). Comments?

Curt - 95

On Jun 10, 6:43*am, JC > wrote:
> Why is there always so much PW5 bashing?

Just to be clear the purpose of my post was not to bash the PW5 or the
World Class. It was about having a Nationals with only 7
participants.

One of my contest goals is to finish in the top 10 at a Standard
Nats. I set that goal when it was normal to have 40-50 contestants.
Meeting that goals if only 7 contestants showed up would be
meaningless.

Following the same thought, the turnout at the US Std Nats this year
is disappointingly low too.

Andy

On Jun 10, 9:03*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Jun 10, 6:43*am, JC > wrote:
>
> > Why is there always so much PW5 bashing?
>
> Just to be clear the purpose of my post was not to bash the PW5 or the
> World Class. *It was about having a Nationals with only 7
> participants.
>
> One of my contest goals is to finish in the top 10 at a Standard
> Nats. *I set that goal when it was normal to have 40-50 contestants.
> Meeting that goals if only 7 contestants showed up would be
> meaningless.
>
> Following the same thought, the turnout at the US Std Nats this year
> is disappointingly low too.
>
> Andy

only 12 gliders in the 1-26 nats which seems pretty low to me too. I
suspect a combination of the economy and having the contest on a
coast.

but 7 PW-5's is 10% of the fleet which doesnt seem like too bad
representation to me.

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 06:53:06 -0700, CLewis95 wrote:

> I'm very curious to know how the World Class is doing (dare I say
> growing) in other parts of the world (other than USA). Comments?
>
I've been flying for 10 years in the UK and can't recall seeing one here.
There was one on our field for a few months but I never saw it out of its
trailer.

OTOH I flew one in NZ in 2003. It seemed pleasant enough to fly off aero
tow. Then I flew an H.201 Libelle, which I preferred, and that is what I
fly now.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jun 9, 7:51*pm, Scott Alexander >
wrote:
> Who got to pick the PW-5 for world class? *What were they
> drinking!!???
>
> We have a PW-5 in my club and it hardly ever gets flown. *When it
> does
> fly, it tends to stay locally even though our club promotes and
> encourages cross country soaring. *That glider just doesn't have long
> enough legs
> to run with. *I like the Discus idea above, or maybe an ASW-20 type
> ship. *I
> would love to compete in a one design class, it would surely reduce
> the
> "$$$$$" aspect of winning a race. *If you have an ASW-20 and compete
> against an ASG-29 in 15M.....good luck! *With a one design class, the
> pilots skill would shine rather than the aerodynamic engineers skill
> shining.

It's not the "legs" of a PW 5 that is a problem. It is the fact that
some pilots who have the opportunity to fly them don't have the skills
or the courage to get out there without a long "final glide" to ease
their fears. It's the pilots not the ship that keeps some PW 5s at
home. It is an especially great ship for Parawan but is also great for
weak Gulf Coast conditions.

No need for anyone to respond to this message unless you have done a
few 300+Ks in one or had a great time flying one close to home.
Otherwise, it will be like the numerous PW5 bashings that seem only to
be an attempt to limit soaring rather than help it grow.

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 06:53:06 -0700 (PDT), CLewis95 >
wrote:

>I'm very curious to know how the World Class is doing (dare I say
>growing) in other parts of the world (other than USA). Comments?

Speaking for Germany, the World class here has always been regarded as
a joke - and people flying PW-5s instead of standard or club class
gliders have been laughed at. No joke.

General consensus here is that someone who buys a glider with Ka-6
performance for the same price as a used LS-4 must be mentally ill.

I don't know of any PW-5 that has ever been purchased by a German
club.

Of course there are lots of good and reasonably priced used gliders
available here.

Cheers
Andreas

On Jun 10, 10:35*am, Tony > wrote:
> On Jun 10, 9:03*am, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 10, 6:43*am, JC > wrote:
>
> > > Why is there always so much PW5 bashing?
>
> > Just to be clear the purpose of my post was not to bash the PW5 or the
> > World Class. *It was about having a Nationals with only 7
> > participants.
>
> > One of my contest goals is to finish in the top 10 at a Standard
> > Nats. *I set that goal when it was normal to have 40-50 contestants.
> > Meeting that goals if only 7 contestants showed up would be
> > meaningless.
>
> > Following the same thought, the turnout at the US Std Nats this year
> > is disappointingly low too.
>
> > Andy
>
> only 12 gliders in the 1-26 nats which seems pretty low to me too. *I
> suspect a combination of the economy and having the contest on a
> coast.
>
> but 7 PW-5's is 10% of the fleet which doesnt seem like too bad
> representation to me.

Also to keep in mind is that the Worlds are at the end of the month,
so a couple of US pilots are not at the Nationals. Plus, one regular
competitor is acting as contest manager instead of flying.
Nonetheless, 10 competitors is pretty poor. On the other end of
the spectrum, there are 11 pilots signed up for the US Open Nationals,
of which several are actually flying 18M ships.

The class itself had a certain logic to it; the SGS1-26 class is
very popular in the US and this was an attempt to extend that
success to an international level. Arguably the L33 was a better
machine (lighter plane, same L/D, can be tied out for extended
periods, except that it failed the stall speed with spoilers out).
However, the whole concept got swamped by the club class/
sports class idea. Now THAT's a National contest -- full field
at a spectacular soaring site this year.

-- Matt

On Jun 11, 11:50*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> Speaking for Germany, the World class here has always been regarded as
> a joke - and people flying PW-5s instead of standard or club class
> gliders have been laughed at. No joke.
>
> General consensus here is that someone who buys a glider with Ka-6
> performance for the same price as a used LS-4 must be mentally ill.

I'd really love to know where all these mythical LS4s are.

Our two PW5s cost us NZ$25k each brand new, which would have been
around $15k or 13k EUR at the time.

If I recall correctly, they came out from Europe in the same container
as some gliders coming for the '95 Worlds. I also seem to recall that
people were still flying LS4s in the Worlds at that time.

The used glider alternative would have been a Libelle or Cirrus from
the early 70's.

Those certainly have more performance than a PW5, but they are far
less suitable for early solo flying and first cross country flying and
outlandings. The Cirrus has a belly hook and an all flying tail. Both
have much more marginal airbrakes than more recent designs.

We throw people in the PW5 after about 5 solo flights in the Grob
(back then) or DG1000 now. Would you do that with a Libelle or Cirrus?
I don't think so.

I'd certainly be interested to learn if German clubs do it with an
LS4.

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
> wrote:


>I'd really love to know where all these mythical LS4s are.

http://www.segelflug.de/classifieds/

For example:
ASW-19, without instruments, otherwise good condition, 16.600 Eur
LS-4 23.500 Eur
DG-300 22.000 Eur
ASW-15 12.000 Eur



>Our two PW5s cost us NZ$25k each brand new, which would have been
>around $15k or 13k EUR at the time.

Well... at this time we still had the D-Mark, the PW-5 being
significantly more expensive than a used LS-4 at this time, definitely
beyond the 35.000 DM border.


>Those certainly have more performance than a PW5, but they are far
>less suitable for early solo flying and first cross country flying and
>outlandings. The Cirrus has a belly hook and an all flying tail. Both
>have much more marginal airbrakes than more recent designs.

Maybe some of the 1st generation gliders have some disadvantages
compared to a PW-5, but certainly not the ASW-19 and later gliders.


>We throw people in the PW5 after about 5 solo flights in the Grob
>(back then) or DG1000 now. Would you do that with a Libelle or Cirrus?
>I don't think so.
>
>I'd certainly be interested to learn if German clubs do it with an
>LS4.

They do, although usually there are solo flights required on the
double seater (we usually use the winch).


But that's not the point.
Worldclass was a clear failure due to the chosen glider. The success
uf Club class demonstrates what people really want.

Andreas

On Jun 12, 10:26*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
>
> > wrote:
> >I'd really love to know where all these mythical LS4s are.
>
> http://www.segelflug.de/classifieds/
>
> For example:
> ASW-19, without instruments, otherwise good condition, 16.600 Eur
> LS-4 23.500 Eur
> DG-300 22.000 Eur
> ASW-15 12.000 Eur

Note that that is now, not in 1995 when we bought our PW5s.

How deep is that market? What if 100 people join gliding tomorrow and
want to buy gliders? How about 1000?


> >Our two PW5s cost us NZ$25k each brand new, which would have been
> >around $15k or 13k EUR at the time.
>
> Well... at this time we still had the D-Mark, the PW-5 being
> significantly more expensive than a used LS-4 at this time, definitely
> beyond the 35.000 DM border.

My recollection is that over long periods of time the DM was very
close to being the same value as the NZ$. In recent history, it's
always been very close to 1 EUR being the same as NZ$2. And, if I
recall correctly, you swapped DM for EUR at a rate of 1.95 in 1999.
So the NZ$/DM/EUR rates have been quite stable over this time period.
(far more stable than any of those currencies have been against the US
$ or Yen, for example)

The aircraft advertisements you quote above put the LS-4 at about
45000 DM *now*. I doubt that they were less than 35000 DM in 1995.
Probably they were at or above the current price.

We paid about 25000 DM for our PW5s. That is a lot less than the 35000
DM you give, not to mention the 45000 for a used LS-4 today.


> But that's not the point.
> Worldclass was a clear failure due to the chosen glider. The success
> uf Club class demonstrates what people really want.

Surely the PW5 is not sufficiently worse than the Russia, or any other
entrant in that design contest, to make the chosen glider the reason
for failure? At the very least, you would have needed a completely
different set of goals for the design contest.

But in fact I think the main reason the World Class is a failure as a
competition class is due to the general world-wide decline of gliding.

Had the sport grown, as I'm sure we would all like, there would not be
enough used LS-4's, Discuses or even ASK6's to go around, at any
price. The advantage of a new glider, such as the PW5, is that as many
could be manufactured as required to meet demand, with prices probably
decreasing as a result.

People don't seem to appreciate how very inexpensive the PW5 was when
it was introduced (and would I think have remained given more demand).

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 01:07:47 -0700 (PDT), Bruce Hoult
> wrote:


>Note that that is now, not in 1995 when we bought our PW5s.
>
>How deep is that market? What if 100 people join gliding tomorrow and
>want to buy gliders? How about 1000?

Since this question is completely fictional, this question doesn't
really matter, does it?


>We paid about 25000 DM for our PW5s. That is a lot less than the 35000
>DM you give, not to mention the 45000 for a used LS-4 today.

The PW-5 was offered for quite precisely 37.000 DM here in Germany
(one design criteria was that it ought to have been 30.000 DM at
maximum, which they couldn't hold). At that time we sold our ASW-20L
for 42.000 and our Twin 2 for 50.000 DM.



>Surely the PW5 is not sufficiently worse than the Russia, or any other
>entrant in that design contest, to make the chosen glider the reason
>for failure? At the very least, you would have needed a completely
>different set of goals for the design contest.

Not completely different, but specifications that would have made the
World Class glider attractive to clubs in countries where the biggest
market is (Germany, austria, Switzerland, GB, Netherlands).

This would have meant an LD of about 40, a fixed gear, automatic
control hookups (let's call this a fixed-gear LS-4) and would haqve
created a world-class trainer glider.
By completely ignoring this market the World Class never had a chance.


>But in fact I think the main reason the World Class is a failure as a
>competition class is due to the general world-wide decline of gliding.

I beg to differ.
It's always the same problem: Why should someone fly a (butt-ugly)
glider that offers the performance of the mid-1950s?

I don't know how things are on your side of the pond, but in many
European regions an L/D of about 40 is simply necessary to do some
serious XC flying (and make the glider in question attractive). You
are not going to find many gliders with an LD of less than 40 in
European clubs these days anymore.


>Had the sport grown, as I'm sure we would all like, there would not be
>enough used LS-4's, Discuses or even ASK6's to go around, at any
>price. The advantage of a new glider, such as the PW5, is that as many
>could be manufactured as required to meet demand, with prices probably
>decreasing as a result.

I guess we've been through this discussion quite often now. :)

Unfortunately the sport didn't grow.
First step would have been to get new glider pilots, who then would
have created a demand for new gliders.

>
>People don't seem to appreciate how very inexpensive the PW5 was when
>it was introduced (and would I think have remained given more demand).

It was NOT inexpensive. It was always more expensive than most
used-gliders, yet offered significantly less performance.

Check the current SSA classifieds:
There's a PW-5 for sale for an amazing 28.000$. Same price as you had
to pay if you bought both the Libelle and the ASW-15 that are for
sale. Paying twice the money to buy something with a huge performance
penalty?

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT), Andy >
wrote:

>I seems to be a sad reflection on our sport, or the rules that govern
>it, that a contest with only 7 contestants can be called a
>"Nationals".

Whatever you call it, it was 12 straight days of pure fun.